XY Pad Weirdness

[ShagLight]

Version 4.12.7, Windows 10.

I've been using the XY pad for tilt only, with still positions as scenes. When first starting 4.12.7, When at first I tilt using the slider on the XY pad (which is patched to a fader on an Akai APC 40 MK2), the movers also pan to DMX value of 0 (full range of pan set on XY pad fixtures tab) when I didn't touch the pan slider. Then when I switch from one still scene to another, it works as intended.

I tried importing my still scenes as presets on the XY pad, but then I have no control of the tilt from the XY pad.

I played with the idea of having presets with the XY values, and when I do that, I can then control the tilt from the XY pad. But as far as I can see, you have to set all movers with the same values (8 movers), and can't set individual movers to different XY values, which is why I do it with scenes.

As a note, I use my EFXs in relative to position mode.

Ideas and thoughts?

[GGGss]

If you change the properties of the XY Pad, there is the option to limit its range of values. (Press the pencil).
Set pan to from 127 to 128 or something suitable...
Just tried it and a big NoNo (!) This doesn't work because of LTP of your other scenes. Touching the XY in pan direction override your scene values.
hmm... let me think about this.

[MichelSliepenbeek]

David,

Your very first sentence already leaves room for different interpretations:

I've been using the XY pad for tilt only, with still positions as scenes.

In an XY pad you can set presets that can either be Positions or Scenes (and on top of that you can also set positions with scenes that are not a preset in your XY Pad).


If you read the on-line manual https://www.qlcplus.org/docs/html_en_EN/vcxypad.html

You will find that X-Y Pad has 3 different usages:
1- Absolute positioning
2- EFX
3- Relative to a Scene

Unfortunately there is no option on the XY Pad to select which usage you want, QLC will derive the usage from the presets you define.
If you add one or more Positions to the presets it will act as "Absolute Positioning," if you add one or more Scenes to the presets it will act as "Relative To A Scene" (and to be honest: i don't know what will happen if you add both Scenes and Positions together).

As the XY Pad is designed to control "X and Y" it should not be a surprise that it will take control of both Pan and Tilt (and as Pan and Tilt channels are defined as LTP Latest Takes Precedence, it will overwrite the previous value) .
In Absolute Positioning Mode (so with positions as presets) if your pan jumps to zero, it is likely that it will do so because the pan is set to zero in that position preset (be aware that we are in absolute Mode and LTP, so zero doesn't mean "don't care", it really means zero).
In Relative To a Scene Mode however you could add scenes that only have the Tilt channel activated (so Pan is not Boxed), but for some reason the XY pad will only act on specific fixtures (not all, see viewtopic.php?t=16472 ).


Maybe this will already make you understand what is causing your problem, otherwise i suggest you post your workspace and be a bit more precise in your problem description.

[GGGss]

(and to be honest: i don't know what will happen if you add both Scenes and Positions together).viewtopic.php?t=16472 ).

Always LTP on positions Michel

[MichelSliepenbeek]

The context is: What usage the XY Pad will derive if you use both Positions and Scenes as presets.

[GGGss]

What usage the XY Pad will derive

Always Michel, Allways ... you can mess up things quite easily but sometimes to good faith

[ShagLight]

David,

Your very first sentence already leaves room for different interpretations:

I've been using the XY pad for tilt only, with still positions as scenes.

In an XY pad you can set presets that can either be Positions or Scenes (and on top of that you can also set positions with scenes that are not a preset in your XY Pad).


If you read the on-line manual https://www.qlcplus.org/docs/html_en_EN/vcxypad.html

You will find that X-Y Pad has 3 different usages:
1- Absolute positioning
2- EFX
3- Relative to a Scene

Unfortunately there is no option on the XY Pad to select which usage you want, QLC will derive the usage from the presets you define.
If you add one or more Positions to the presets it will act as "Absolute Positioning," if you add one or more Scenes to the presets it will act as "Relative To A Scene" (and to be honest: i don't know what will happen if you add both Scenes and Positions together).

As the XY Pad is designed to control "X and Y" it should not be a surprise that it will take control of both Pan and Tilt (and as Pan and Tilt channels are defined as LTP Latest Takes Precedence, it will overwrite the previous value) .
In Absolute Positioning Mode (so with positions as presets) if your pan jumps to zero, it is likely that it will do so because the pan is set to zero in that position preset (be aware that we are in absolute Mode and LTP, so zero doesn't mean "don't care", it really means zero).
In Relative To a Scene Mode however you could add scenes that only have the Tilt channel activated (so Pan is not Boxed), but for some reason the XY pad will only act on specific fixtures (not all, see viewtopic.php?t=16472 ).


Maybe this will already make you understand what is causing your problem, otherwise i suggest you post your workspace and be a bit more precise in your problem description.

OK, I'll try to explain better.

I use a row of 8 movers flown at the back of the stage. The EFXs I use are all in relative mode.

I have several still positions: In one position, they point straight out toward the front of the stage. Another position forms 4 Xs. In another position, they all point toward center stage. Yet another position might point, for example, behind a guitar player when he does a solo.

Because I use several different still positions, I need to be able to set different pan values to different movers, and the only way to to this (as far as I know) is with scenes.

I do this by setting scenes with different values to pan only, and control the tilt (with a limited range) with a fader on an Akai APC40 MK2. In 4.11.2, I set the tilt in all the movers to HTP, disabled the tilt channels in the still position scenes, and used a slider to control the tilt (the slider patched to a fader on the APC40 MK2).

However, I can't do it that way in 4.12.7. I can't control the tilt (whether in HTP or LTP) with a slider, so I'm forced to use the XY pad.

When using the XY pad, when I first start up and use the tilt slider on the XY pad (without touching the pan slider), it also pans to 0 value, unless I limit the pan value range from the fixtures tab. Then once I switch still positions, it works as intended. This seems to be LTP behavior.

Then I tried bringing in the still position scenes as presets on the XY pad and when I do that, the tilt (or pan) sliders on the XY pad don't work. Bear in mind I did delete the slider for tilt that I was originally using.

Then I tried bringing in XY positions as presets. The slider on the XY pad then worked, but I can't assign different pan values to different movers. Can only assign one value for all movers. Remember, I need different pan values for different movers for different still positions.

It would be good if I could get it working by using scenes as presets somehow.

But if all else fails, I can live with just the still position scenes (NOT as presets), and just remember the behavior when I power up and get everything cue'd up.

Attached is screenshot of my console.

[MichelSliepenbeek]

I have a feeling that there is something wrong in your workfile, and that it was already there before you upgraded to 4.12.7.
Let me try to explain it.

I do this by setting scenes with different values to pan only, and control the tilt (with a limited range) with a fader on an Akai APC40 MK2. In 4.11.2, I set the tilt in all the movers to HTP, disabled the tilt channels in the still position scenes, and used a slider to control the tilt (the slider patched to a fader on the APC40 MK2).

If you only control your Tilt with a slider and nothing else, it should not make any difference whether you use HTP or LTP.
If you can only make this work by setting the Tilt channels to HTP, it seems that there must be another function active as well that sets your Tilt to zero.

I can't control the tilt (whether in HTP or LTP) with a slider, so I'm forced to use the XY pad.

This does not make sense (unless there is already an other slider linked to those channels or a fuction overrulling your slider or .......).


I suggest you first do this experiment: just add a new movinghead to your workfile and only attach two sliders to Pan and Tilt (nothing else) and find out that you can control Pan and Tilt for This Fixture.
If that does not work you could repeat the test with a movinghead from a different brand (to rule out errors in your fixture definition) and even put it in a fresh universe.

[ShagLight]

I have a feeling that there is something wrong in your workfile, and that it was already there before you upgraded to 4.12.7.
Let me try to explain it.

I do this by setting scenes with different values to pan only, and control the tilt (with a limited range) with a fader on an Akai APC40 MK2. In 4.11.2, I set the tilt in all the movers to HTP, disabled the tilt channels in the still position scenes, and used a slider to control the tilt (the slider patched to a fader on the APC40 MK2).

If you only control your Tilt with a slider and nothing else, it should not make any difference whether you use HTP or LTP.
If you can only make this work by setting the Tilt channels to HTP, it seems that there must be another function active as well that sets your Tilt to zero.

I can't control the tilt (whether in HTP or LTP) with a slider, so I'm forced to use the XY pad.

This does not make sense (unless there is already an other slider linked to those channels or a fuction overrulling your slider or .......).


I suggest you first do this experiment: just add a new movinghead to your workfile and only attach two sliders to Pan and Tilt (nothing else) and find out that you can control Pan and Tilt for This Fixture.
If that does not work you could repeat the test with a movinghead from a different brand (to rule out errors in your fixture definition) and even put it in a fresh universe.

I did an experiment with a new show file and just one mover (4.12.7) and here is what I found:

First, I created a still position scene with a pan value and left the tilt channels disabled.

When using a slider to control tilt:
In virtual console with the position scene on: With the tilt in LTP, the slider works with the tilt. With the tilt in HTP, the slider does not work.

When using XY pad to control the tilt:
In virtual console with the position scene on: Tilt slider on the XY pad works whether LTP or HTP.

The problem with LTP is (Remember I run EFXs in relative mode), the movers don't return to the still scene (pan yes, tilt no) when I turn off the EFX.

I tried the experiments with two different movers with the same results.

[MichelSliepenbeek]

My idea with this experiment was to add this new moving head to your existing show file (not a new one).
If this moving head acts different from the other ones, you would learn that the problem is in one of your functions. If it acts the same, the problem is in the fixture or in the (understanding of the) logic.

Some suggestions:
- just set all your Pan and Tilt Channels to LTP. All EFX functions in QLC are designed to work with LTP,. It's easier to just "go with the flow" otherwise you might get surprised with unexpected behaviour (now or with
a following upgrade to a higher release).

- in LTP, if you stop a function, the channel(s) will go back to the previous value (the value that was active before you started that function), but QLC can only do that if a previous value is available.
If you don't set a value for your Tilt channel in any of your scenes, there simply is no previous value to go back to (so the last Tilt position of the function you just stopped will remain valid).
Therefor you should create at least one scene where you set the starting positions for your Tilt channels, just to initialise your workspace.

- If you run your EFX in Relative mode and you want them go back to their starting postions after stopping an EFX (although they should do that in LTP mode), you could add an extra effect (e.g. Circle)
with Width = 0 and Heigth = 0.

- i noticed that you launch your EFX's from a solo frame. You can also add an extra X-Y pad, where you only add your EFX's as presets (no positions no scenes, you don't even have to add fixtures as QLC can derive
those from your EFX's). This will put this XY Pad in EFX mode: you can launch your EFX's with the buttons in this XY Pad and (as a bonus) with the handles on top and on the left, you now have the possiblility to
change the size of your Effect. In fact you can also move "the centerpostion of your effect": put your cursor on the bar in between the two handles, keep the left button of your mouse pressed and move your mouse
in the direction you want.

- instead of controlling 8 moving heads with one XY pad, you could also consider to use 8 XY pads: each with only one moving head assigned. For all 8 pads you define the same slider as external input for tilt.
This way you can use different Pan positions for each moving head and still use "your single Tilt Slider".

- if nothing is working, there is another workaround:
Create two scenes, one with the highest Tilt position and one with the lowest Tilt position you want to use.
Add those two scenes to a chaser (with run time = infinite and no fade times).
Create a cue list (with only this chaser) on your work space and on the final tab select Crossfader (and attach your APC 40 slider to this crossfader).
In order to make this work you need to ensure that (at least) your Tilt channels of your Moving Heads are setup as "can fade" (on the left from where you set LTP/HTP).
If you don't want the cross fader to "flip around" when it reaches 0 or 255 you can put a loopback slider in between (meaning: you set this loopback slider as external input for the Crossfader and attach the slider
from your APC 40 to this loopback slider) and use a channel modifier to keep the possible values between 3 and 252.


I hope these suggestions will help you solve your problem.

[ShagLight]

My idea with this experiment was to add this new moving head to your existing show file (not a new one).
If this moving head acts different from the other ones, you would learn that the problem is in one of your functions. If it acts the same, the problem is in the fixture or in the (understanding of the) logic.

Some suggestions:
- just set all your Pan and Tilt Channels to LTP. All EFX functions in QLC are designed to work with LTP,. It's easier to just "go with the flow" otherwise you might get surprised with unexpected behaviour (now or with
a following upgrade to a higher release).

- in LTP, if you stop a function, the channel(s) will go back to the previous value (the value that was active before you started that function), but QLC can only do that if a previous value is available.
If you don't set a value for your Tilt channel in any of your scenes, there simply is no previous value to go back to (so the last Tilt position of the function you just stopped will remain valid).
Therefor you should create at least one scene where you set the starting positions for your Tilt channels, just to initialise your workspace.

- If you run your EFX in Relative mode and you want them go back to their starting postions after stopping an EFX (although they should do that in LTP mode), you could add an extra effect (e.g. Circle)
with Width = 0 and Heigth = 0.

- i noticed that you launch your EFX's from a solo frame. You can also add an extra X-Y pad, where you only add your EFX's as presets (no positions no scenes, you don't even have to add fixtures as QLC can derive
those from your EFX's). This will put this XY Pad in EFX mode: you can launch your EFX's with the buttons in this XY Pad and (as a bonus) with the handles on top and on the left, you now have the possiblility to
change the size of your Effect. In fact you can also move "the centerpostion of your effect": put your cursor on the bar in between the two handles, keep the left button of your mouse pressed and move your mouse
in the direction you want.

- instead of controlling 8 moving heads with one XY pad, you could also consider to use 8 XY pads: each with only one moving head assigned. For all 8 pads you define the same slider as external input for tilt.
This way you can use different Pan positions for each moving head and still use "your single Tilt Slider".

- if nothing is working, there is another workaround:
Create two scenes, one with the highest Tilt position and one with the lowest Tilt position you want to use.
Add those two scenes to a chaser (with run time = infinite and no fade times).
Create a cue list (with only this chaser) on your work space and on the final tab select Crossfader (and attach your APC 40 slider to this crossfader).
In order to make this work you need to ensure that (at least) your Tilt channels of your Moving Heads are setup as "can fade" (on the left from where you set LTP/HTP).
If you don't want the cross fader to "flip around" when it reaches 0 or 255 you can put a loopback slider in between (meaning: you set this loopback slider as external input for the Crossfader and attach the slider
from your APC 40 to this loopback slider) and use a channel modifier to keep the possible values between 3 and 252.


I hope these suggestions will help you solve your problem.

First of all, thanks for the responses and suggestions. I think I finally figured out how to LTP the tilt and have it work the way I want.

I went back to setting positions as scenes and in the scenes, set the desired pan values and disabled all the tilt channels. Then of course, set all fixture tilts to LTP. In the XY pad I can now control the tilt (with limited range as before) and the fixtures return to position when EFXs are turned off.

This worked with my testing, hopefully it will work with my actual show. I'll find out this weekend as I'm lighting up a band, so I'll be able to put it through it's paces.